Battling Revamps

For discussion of the Subeta pet site, including new colours and other features.
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AngharadTy
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Battling Revamps

Post by AngharadTy » 24 Jun 2012 05:18 am

Weapons updated for the battle system.

I know this is only part one of a multi-part update to battling, but the only thing it's done at all is make it so I can do less on the site. Nothing has been improved for my experience at all, and I understand scrolls got nerfed (although I don't remember the previous stats myself). Luckily Mezzanine is rank 9 and my highest weapon is rank 8, so I'm only affected with my secondary battle pets, but... still.

The defense of "any other game you play has level requirements for weapons!" does not fly with me: in any other game I can get to max level in weeks or months and max rank here takes many years. I've been training for years to even be at rank 9. "Fortunately," I've been too poor to buy nicer weapons (I only have a Malice because of the reading drive and a Malerias short sword because of the hustler). Also, Subeta is not "any other game." The closest battle system is Neopets, and... well okay neither is fun at all, I'll admit. But the gameplay is completely different, so let's not pretend it's similar enough to base comparisons on.

And if I want to battle with my lower ranked pets at all, I have to buy new weapons for them now. Oh man. I love spending money on crappy weapons when I already have decent ones. Especially because the best crappy weapons will now be inflated.

Not to mention I'll have to change my default set to battle with any other pet because the "choose your weapons" option before battle has never worked... is that just me?
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Wingsrising » 24 Jun 2012 05:39 am

I can't use my legendary weapons on any of my pets anymore. Luckily I bought them for treasure and not for battling, but it was a nice option when there were plot-related battles.

Fortunately I didn't care about battling before. Now I just care about it even less!

Sucks for people who paid real money for weapons they now can't use, though.
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Foghawk » 24 Jun 2012 08:56 am

I can no longer use a single piece from my standard battle set. Awesome???
AngharadTy wrote:The defense of "any other game you play has level requirements for weapons!" does not fly with me: in any other game I can get to max level in weeks or months and max rank here takes many years. I've been training for years to even be at rank 9. ... Also, Subeta is not "any other game".
This, yeah. In pretty much all other games, leveling is a result of battling, so it involves doing something that is presumably actually fun. In WoW or Pokémon or, hell, NeoQuest, the battling is just about the entire game! It has been designed to be the fun part. There is no external training system; you get better at the fun game by playing the fun game. ('Neo has an external training system,' I hear you cry. Okay, but at least it never had tiers. 'Subeta has XP-for-stat redemption,' you point out. Well, yes, but the yield is pointlessly low. I think I've been able to buy a stat point, what, twice? in all the time I've battled. It's clearly not the primary method.) On Subeta, getting better at the fun game involves either paying actual money, or making sure you're on the site every couple of hours, on the dot, as near to 'round-the-clock as you can handle.* It sucks! No one likes it. It's boring and awful.

*I suppose this is as good a point as any to note that I've always been deeply suspicious of time-based lockouts. 'Well, if you want to do as much as you can, you'd better give us a few more pageviews every three hours. Or hour. Or fifteen minutes. And if you're refreshing your timers, why not find a few other things to do while you're here? My, you must be invested in the site to be on so often; maybe you'd like to improve your experience...'

The thing is, on Subeta (as on Neo), the battling has never been the entire game, or even a very well-liked or important part of it; it's the site as a whole that's had attention paid to it, not the battles. When people buy expensive weapons instead of training their pets, they're not trying to cheat the system; they're taking all the time and investment they've put into Subeta as a whole (namely the part where you need to make money) and trying to put it to work in a part of the site that presumably they'd enjoy if they didn't have to sit and train for literal years. Buying (or creating!) a new weapon and seeing it in action is fun even for mid- and low-rangers, and it's easily a better way to see improvement. I don't buy the tier system, because it's taken away the most enjoyable and rewarding aspect of working to get better.

I'm not willing to pass judgment on the entire battle revamp just yet, not least because it seems it's being looked at by people who care for the first time in ages. If opponents' XP rewards are massively increased, or training is rehauled to involve some kind of effort or engagement, or somehow, anyhow, battling gets freed from the crippling click-and-wait of the training system, I might love it. With what we've got, though, it's easier for me just to throw in the towel.
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Marah » 24 Jun 2012 09:13 am

I've wanted to get into battling and decided to wait for the revamp. My weapons mostly sucked and thus I only have 2 or 3 that I can't use anymore. I have a tier 2,3 and 4 pet. I thought that was fine, seeing how much time I have been on subeta (not nearly as long as most of you guys.)

The main problem I always had with battling was that there was no weapon data base. All the information about it was in the forums, but I always found the forums a very confusing layout for such guides. Just give me a handy database like the battlepedia!

I also wish that the weapons in my armory showed the stats and modifications without having to hover over them, so I can compare them more easily. And, with the new system, being able to sort the armory by tier. (Or just being able to sort all of the armory like the prefered weapons, so I can put them by each tier myself.)

Ty, the choose your weapons option always worked fine for me.

So right now, I'm still as confused as I was. (Didn't expect to change that overnight ;) But I will start to try and figure out new sets for my pets.(Maybe we could get an option where you can make different battlesets for each pet?)

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AngharadTy
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by AngharadTy » 24 Jun 2012 10:02 am

Foghawk wrote:In WoW or Pokémon or, hell, NeoQuest, the battling is just about the entire game! It has been designed to be the fun part. There is no external training system; you get better at the fun game by playing the fun game.
Yes, this! Exactly this. Although of course I would add that battling on Subeta is not very fun at all other than a very minor level of interest in deciding which of my weapons to use every turn.
Marah wrote:Ty, the choose your weapons option always worked fine for me.
Well, damn. I cleared all my customcss and it still doesn't work. It says to click in the lower box--sure, fine, that adds weapons. Then arrange them in the upper box. Ummm... kay, but now I have 9 weapons in there, and if I start a battle, it tells me I have too many. Not sure if I the stupid one or...
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Marah » 24 Jun 2012 10:33 am

I'm not sure if I got it, but basically you try to battle with your basic set + one added weapon? I always thought the ordering thing was for ordering your weapons by preference, not that just the first 8 were taken into battle.
So my basic set has always been 7 so I could add one rotating weapon.

So maybe it didn't work for me, except I didn't know that because I failed to understand how it should work.
I'm not much help to you today, I blame it on the weather.

So amongst the gazillion of lists compiled on subeta there isn't a wearable weapons list? I know I have some in my wardrobe but I haven't found a site where I can cross reference a clothing item list with a weapon list. And subetahq's checklist feature seems to be down for weapons, otherwise excel mioght have helped.

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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Seerow » 24 Jun 2012 12:49 pm

Ty, are you actually unclicking the weapons that appear on the top by selecting the bottom counterparts? When I first started using that page I was so confused, nothing in labeled and there are just two boxes with weapons. You click each of the bottom weapons that you already have in your default group, then you can pick new ones.

I also don't buy into the whole "Well other games do it so we need tiers and weapon caps too" bullshit. I am happy that the battledome is getting attention, especially by someone who I know is really into battling (Cranberry!) but at the moment it is just making more people upset and quite battling then improving anything. Maybe if all the revamps were all rolled out at once? Or if I had any confidence that the next stage would be here in any sort of reasonable fashion.

Luckily this doesn't affect my main battle pet, as Ishka is level 10 and my highest weapons are all 7/8. It sort of affects my back up battler as he is tier 7, but I only use him for plot battles.

I never did understand the hatred staff had for people loaning uber weapons to smaller pets and letting them wail on the opponents. So what if a level 30 pet beat Uber BD Opponent 1. They either earned the money or had connected friends, let them have their fun. It is no different then getting the Golden Gun in 007 game, or the rocket power up in Mario Cart. Besides, it releases more of the prizes into existence which is never a bad thing considering how many pets are actually "qualified" to beat the hard opponents.
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Sunwolf » 24 Jun 2012 05:06 pm

I'm actually selfishly happy about this change, as I have a pet with 1550 in all stats (been training for 5 years), but no God-weapons and thus cannot beat any opponent that is over "Medium," and something not even Medium. Perhaps will be able to finally beat some plot monsters now! It never seemed fair to me that my 1550 stats pet, ranked 260 out of all the pets on Subeta, could not beat many opponents, while a 300 stats pet with God weapons could beat everything and win tons of prizes.
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Tom » 24 Jun 2012 05:53 pm

I don't have anything against the revamp. I've invested a lot into battling this year, starting to do BQs every day and upgrading my set and I do appreciate the idea of tiers. I think the problem is that we've had a system for so long where there hasn't been tiers and the objective is to get the best weapons possible - with a few notable exceptions (Flame of the Red Rreign stuff, Malevolent Grimfruit) the best idea is to just aim for the best weapons possible. Weapons that are built for the 'size' of your pet are pointless when you may as well just throw the most icons possible.

I think the tier system does open up a lot more options; deciding which constants to use (as I cannot use my Malice, Trident or Maleria's Short Sword) led me to look at some obscure options I wouldn't have considered previously. It is a bit of a downer to see my damage dropping from ~950 to ~550 per turn, but it does give me more of a goal as I need 172 stats to open up tier 8 (where some nice options, and most of my old weapons, appear), and, though I do BQs every day, I'm also considering activating a GA for the first time in ages to reduce training times and increase the number of BQs I have. I managed to beat all the opponents I could previously, so I guess that takes a weight off my shoulders, too. I was really worried I'd not be able to beat Wyrmgear, but after a bit of tweaking I managed to take him down.

I am definitely looking forward to the opponent revamps. There is a huge imbalance in opponents at the moment. The first 16 opponents, up to Daemon, really blend into one for me and the difficulty separating them is minimal. On the other end of the scale, I beat Felibot and RB ~800 stats, Wyrmgear ~850... and then the next step up is General Error, with the estimates around ~1200 per stat. The jumps only become more ridiculous as it scales up further. I'm really hoping there's a lot more of a balance up the higher end and certainly lots of new challengers!
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by AngharadTy » 24 Jun 2012 06:27 pm

Seerow wrote:Ty, are you actually unclicking the weapons that appear on the top by selecting the bottom counterparts? When I first started using that page I was so confused, nothing in labeled and there are just two boxes with weapons. You click each of the bottom weapons that you already have in your default group, then you can pick new ones.
So I am stupid. However, I also maintain that the system is stupid, because the text doesn't tell you anything about that.
Seerow wrote:I never did understand the hatred staff had for people loaning uber weapons to smaller pets and letting them wail on the opponents. So what if a level 30 pet beat Uber BD Opponent 1. They either earned the money or had connected friends, let them have their fun. It is no different then getting the Golden Gun in 007 game, or the rocket power up in Mario Cart. Besides, it releases more of the prizes into existence which is never a bad thing considering how many pets are actually "qualified" to beat the hard opponents.
This is another good point, because basically what staff are saying with all of this is "geez, a hundred of you were able to do this before?! I only meant for ten people to enjoy that content!"
staff wrote:The idea is that you train your pet and battle opponents that are specifically inside your bracket. We've run into a long term problem where people can buy up great weapons and then just knock over even the hardest opponents.
"Too many people were winning at our game for our arbitrary tastes so we decided to prevent them from even having a chance if they don't buckle down and click the 'train' button every few hours for years."

Times like this, I realize how Subeta is not fun at all outside of the fun I have with pet lookups and the wardrobe.
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Tom » 24 Jun 2012 07:11 pm

I feel like the stat cap kind of helps quash that problem, though, so the top can continue to be challenged while us lowly sufferers, always attempting to catch up, have a quantifiable goal to be aiming for. Obviously this is a long term measure but hopefully through the years we will actually have a more active sense of progression rather than the goalposts always moving. And I can't say I disagree with the idea that both a strong pet and strong weapons are required to be successful in the coliseum.
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by bonecrivain » 24 Jun 2012 07:16 pm

Yeah, the general idea here is fine - make a battling system that's based on how well-trained your pet is - but the reality is that Subeta isn't built for battling. Training means being able to pop online every few hours for YEARS, and I have a full-time job and a life...I don't have the time to do that, nor is it particularly exciting. The alternative is auto-training, I guess, but that's just a money sink. I used to do Battle Quests, but honestly, they're too time-consuming, too, for very little reward.

If leveling a pet was FUN, I'd be working a lot harder at it. That would require battling to be fun, though, instead of like everything else on the site - clickclickclickyawnclickclick. Even if you did Battle Quests every day and auto-trained, it would take a new player ages to get to any point where the gameplay was rewarding. That's not how you build a player database or loyalty - if you stick around for years, you MIGHT get to a point where you're good at battling - but then again, we might change the system to screw you over in another way! I prefer games where you don't have to log in multiple times every day to keep from falling behind. Subeta is a game, not my job or my life. It increasingly seems it has to be one of the two for me to get any "fun" out of it.

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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Cranberry » 24 Jun 2012 07:26 pm

Weapon revamp was only the first step. Next up is balancing opponents (so that you DON'T have to shell out hundreds of millions for weapons to beat mid-level plot challengers, for example) and making it so that leveling your pet isn't just about pushing the training button every few hours. Battle quests will be completely rehauled, experience payouts and stat costs are being changed, and some other stuff is changing as well. I'm not going to debate with anyone about the system until the revamp is actually complete and we can discuss the whole picture.

(I'm not asking you not to vent, of course. Vent away! Just didn't want you to see me in Who's Online and think I was completely ignoring everyone.)

(Oh, and we're going to change the cash shop weapons, excluding monthly collection ones, tonight so that they can be used by all pets but are appropriate for each tier.)
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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Rakumel » 25 Jun 2012 01:23 am

I'd probably be a lot angrier if I'd bought a more expensive weapon set, or a weapon that cost actual money that I couldn't use. As it stands now, I'm only kind of bummed that I can't use the Ignitious I bought a couple of weeks ago. (By my rough calculations, I'll be able to actually use it again in about five months. ...yay?) Everything else in my set I can still use, but apparently Valtam outgrew it some time ago - most of it is tier 4 stuff (he's a tier 6 pet). So basically, I got off lightly on that count. When the dust settles and people calm down, I might ask for help making a new set. Maybe.

That will depend largely on the rest of the revamp, especially the opponents and the rewards for beating said opponents, which was my major issue with battling in the first place. For the longest time, it seemed like I was in this sort of battling limbo where I was bored stiff mopping the floor with easy and medium opponents, but didn't have the stats OR weapons to take on what was supposed to be the next difficulty up. Most of the seasonal and specialty challengers were tantalizingly out of reach as well. (The challengers during the Saheric plot were a nice exception; I enjoyed those.)

Am I saying I want easy victories? Do I want stuff handed to me on a silver platter? Do I want difficult opponents dumbed down for me? Um, no. That's not what I mean at all. I'm also not saying that those who have been around longer and who have trained their pets more religiously don't deserve the rewards they've earned.

What I DO want is for the time, training, and sP I *have* invested up to this point to mean something. I want to that feeling of accomplishment to be a little more tangible, see actual results of growth aside from just numbers going up on stat pages, which as has already been mentioned here, can be painfully slow. No, my pet is not one of the strongest in Subeta, not even close. But what he IS isn't worthless! A little over 700 in all stats, not fantastic, but it's *something*!! It's sure as hell not me being lazy. I'm sick and tired of feeling next to worthless because my pet's not at a certain stat level and won't be for a long time, and isn't able to defeat any opponents yet that have any loot that's actually worth anything aside from a mild sense of accomplishment, "Well, yay, I finally got the Super Special Awesome Shiny Weapon. Good for me! Too bad the actual stats on it are shit." (Other kinds of item drops don't bother me as much because I can always put them in Valtam's treasure chest as a little trophy. But the near-useless weapon drop deal bugs me to no fucking end. And to clarify, I mean the special drop you get after beating certain opponents x number of times; I don't mean the little things they drop every time).

And yet, for all the ranting I've just done, I am cautiously optimistic that this is exactly what's going to be fixed in the updates to come. I hope so. I think that more thought has gone into this revamp than I know, there's hard work going on behind the scenes, and once I get my battle set sorted out and find some new favorite weapons and wail on some new baddies (or some old ones, those jelly...things will be fine with me XD), it'll be all good. So until then, I'm going to reserve my judgment.

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Re: New Features/Updates

Post by Griffin » 25 Jun 2012 01:52 am

I'll reserve judgment on the revamp until the opponents change. So far it hasn't affected anything for me as Hyral is tier 10, and I don't have any weapons above tier 7 (maybe that's why I suck?) My long-standing beef with the BC was that my pet is ranked #165 on the whole site, yet pets who are in the 1000's are able to beat opponents I can't because stats don't count for crap, god weapons are everything. It looks like this will change that, and it sounds promising. Perhaps come this Morostide, the Nightlady will actually be easier due to my stat gains, rather than inexplicably harder?

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