[Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

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Twofold Black
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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Twofold Black » 21 Oct 2007 02:09 am

nanabobo567 wrote:And I just burst out realizing I scoff at the fact that people crowd around gossiping about Britney Spears or OJ Simpson or whoever the "celebrity with new information" is of the day, and yet hear I sit typing a message about the sexuality of a fictional wizard. My life is pathetic.
If it makes you feel better, this has a lot more relevance than ... basically anything Britney Spears has ever been involved in. (OJ Simpson is another, more complex issue.) It's a big deal, socially, for a beloved character from one of the most valuable intellectual properties in history* to be gay, and to be officially acknowledged as such even outside of the canon for that IP (I have issues with that, but this is better than nothing), and, almost as importantly, to be able to retain traits other than his gayness.


* And when I put it that way, it makes me hope that one day the franchise will get its own Knights of the Old Republic. ... and its own Star Wars d20: Saga Edition. It will take about thirty years, though. And ... not be powered by d20.
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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Sagrei » 21 Oct 2007 02:49 am

I gotta say, I wasn't too surprised. When reading about Dumbledore and Grindelwald in book seven, I figured the only way two people can fight like that is if they used to be in love and fell out of it painfully. Still anxiously awaiting confirmation of Sirius and Remus as canon, because... is there anyone out there who thinks they *aren't?* The subtext there was all text!

It amuses me that, to the hatey faction, gaiety is a political issue. I saw a couple of frothy screeds wailing about why JKR had to bring modern politics into children's books. If they'd let go of the damn hate already, it wouldn't BE a political issue. Some people are gay, and ain't nothing wrong with that, and the sooner people realize this the better things will be.

(Mr. Black, I think I love you. Wizards of the Old Republic? I want that game so much you don't even know. Make it happen!)

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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by yvonne_l_d » 21 Oct 2007 09:03 am

Dumbledore as a gay character is a very powerful message because he's a strong, important character. Even though he doesn't get always a ton of 'screen time' in the books, he's a leader, Harry's mentor, and incredibly improtant to Harry's emotional development.

I don't really care for a Remus/Sirius pairing because I love Remus and, sadly, I've hated Sirius (and James) since Book 5, or at least strongly disliked them. In my mind, using magic for bullying is dangerously close to dark magic, even if you're not killing. (But that's just my little soap box.)
Twofold Black wrote:They weren't freaked out by the slash, or not just by the slash -- they were freaked out by the fact that Robinson actually played Garak as interested in Bashir, and told him to cut it out.

Which is a shame, because we're never going to have another Star Trek show as good as DS9, and when we finally get some proper queer Star Trek characters (not merely subtext and the occasional intolerably hot Dax moment) I want them to be in a show that good.
It is sad to remember this. They really missed out on that. They could have been remembered for their ground breaking sexual territory, like they were in the 60's with their interracial kiss. They didn't even have to have an actual gay relationship. The innuendo was interesting (and hot) enough. In the 90's that was pushing the limit.
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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by gomababe » 21 Oct 2007 10:03 am

Man, this is one of those "why didn't I see that before?" kind of things. I think it's a very good thing that JK came out with it so soon after the series ended, there are a lot of fans who may be put off the series entirely when they hear about this {or rather their parents will ban them from reading the books ever again in the case of children -_-. People are stupid}. I wonder if the whole Remus/Sirius thing will become canon as well? Hope so because it was as clear as day to me {and I'm sometimes quite slow to pick up this kind of thing}, if not we always have fanfiction.
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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Jazzy » 21 Oct 2007 10:44 pm

This was unexpected, since gay people simply don't seem to exist in the wizarding world, but it does fit fairly well. Interesting. Stonewall are just being silly, though.
I'm surprised it's Dumbledore who's gay and not Lupin, when Lupin is so obviously -- whether she intended him to be not -- a metaphor for a gay, possibly HIV-positive teacher.
I think she really didn't, assuming you mean specifically "gay teacher" and not just "gay". What makes me say that is in England at least, you do get openly gay teachers (I had five at my secondary school that I can remember) and high up, too - three were heads of department, and a fourth was head of sixth form. Being a gay teacher doesn't seem to be a problem, in my experience.

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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Twofold Black » 21 Oct 2007 11:26 pm

Jazzy wrote:I think she really didn't, assuming you mean specifically "gay teacher" and not just "gay". What makes me say that is in England at least, you do get openly gay teachers (I had five at my secondary school that I can remember) and high up, too - three were heads of department, and a fourth was head of sixth form. Being a gay teacher doesn't seem to be a problem, in my experience.
You're doing it wrong again, England!

Okay, so it doesn't actually bear on the realities of life in in the UK in any way; from my perspective as an American Lupin is still an excellent metaphor for a gay teacher -- specifically a gay teacher, because in the States all gay men are presumed to be predators with communicable diseases who will turn nubile boys into yet more predators with communicable diseases, but it's an order of magnitude worse for gay men who work with children. This isn't necessarily the prevailing attitude everywhere, but for every gay teacher there's some spiritual cousin of this excrable creature somewhere in the vicinity, watching and 'thinking':
Douchebag #829509 wrote:i don't appreciate this suddeness for dumbly to be gay. i guess killing grindelwald was a way of showing his love for him. idk. i will look at dumbly's dusty face and think: did he ever rape harry? did he take pics of harry and hide them in his 50 foot long beard? what if he shaved his whiskers off? would there be a tatoo of harry doing the samba? gay ppl. are taking over the world. but we will stand and fight.
It's not quite as bad for lesbian teachers in the States -- there's no strong connection between lesbians and venereal disease in the public mind, for one thing -- but the thinking is still there. We can be almost entirely certain that this subtext is unintentional, but for my purposes that's irrelevant.

Edit: 'i don't appreciate this suddeness for dumbly to be gay'? That's not how you construct a sentence. You will be first against the wall when the revolution comes.
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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by oogabooga » 22 Oct 2007 01:27 am

I'm far more interested in the reactions of various people than I am in the actual news (it's only barely canon, really, since it's not in the books except maybe very subtly hinted at). I'm sure most of it's predictable, but it will be interesting to see whether/how much it affects the books' popularity. It's only a shame we don't have a control series to compare it with... :P

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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Huggles » 22 Oct 2007 05:36 pm

LotR perhaps? The movies were so gay.Teehee. Really though, if it's not in the books or some book somewhere, it doesn't really count in my eyes. I don't want to say I don't care much, but I'd be lying if I said I did. It's probably because I'm not so much a fan of the books, but of the actors in the movies. Until everyone started dying, I didn't really care about the characters, so I'm still quite detached. I never really saw the Remus and Sirius thing, but again that was probably because I was thinking about the actors more than the characters. All sooo hot and I don't ever think about sharing them, even with each other.

I will say Mr.Black is dead on for how it very likely will be perceived here. Male gay teachers are on par with pedophile priests for a stupid yet significant portion of Americans.

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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Twofold Black » 23 Oct 2007 03:25 am

Huggles wrote:I never really saw the Remus and Sirius thing, but again that was probably because I was thinking about the actors more than the characters. All sooo hot and I don't ever think about sharing them, even with each other.
You'd have seen it if Lupin had been played by Tim Roth as god intended. HOMG. That thought keeps me warm at night.
Huggles wrote:I will say Mr.Black is dead on for how it very likely will be perceived here. Male gay teachers are on par with pedophile priests for a stupid yet significant portion of Americans.
But with gay men who teach (I have yet to find a way to express this concept that isn't terribly clunky; if this conversation keeps up much longer I'm going to have to make up a word, probably borrowed from Japanese fetish cartoon terminology like all the words I 'make up') it's not nearly so much a matter of a small percentage of the population ruining it for the rest of them, as is the case with pedophile priests. America, taken as a stupid, miserable whole, doesn't see anything wrong with priests in general, whereas it regards all queers as to some extent inherently predatory, that is, desiring to convert our innocent children and sometimes even our innocent adults into yet more queers with their frightening yet alluring acts of sodomy, snappy attire and entertainment industry contacts. Even if no male teacher ever so much as entertained a stray thought about a male student, gay teachers would be regarded by some people as in it only or primarily for the boy-touching. That it does occasionally happen -- proportionally about as often as a male teacher touches a female student or a female teacher touches a etc etc -- just makes it worse, of course, though I submit that a man who gets a job working with children for reasons of sexual predation is not actually meaningfully comparable to your run of the mill gay man; the former type of person is usually not interested in other men in general, only in boys. This distinction is much too subtle for the man on the street to handle, mostly because the thought of anal sex has triggered his fight-or-flight instincts and he's brimful of adrenaline.
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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by AngharadTy » 23 Oct 2007 03:51 am

Twofold Black wrote:
Huggles wrote:I never really saw the Remus and Sirius thing, but again that was probably because I was thinking about the actors more than the characters. All sooo hot and I don't ever think about sharing them, even with each other.
You'd have seen it if Lupin had been played by Tim Roth as god intended. HOMG. That thought keeps me warm at night.
God, yes. That would have been so much better. David Thewlis was badly ruined for me by Total Eclipse, though Dragonheart was a nail in that coffin. I hate that he's Lupin, who I imagine as much better in my head.
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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Twofold Black » 23 Oct 2007 04:19 am

AngharadTy wrote:God, yes. That would have been so much better. David Thewlis was badly ruined for me by Total Eclipse, though Dragonheart was a nail in that coffin. I hate that he's Lupin, who I imagine as much better in my head.
I don't think Thewlis did a bad job -- actually, he did a really good job of being David Thewlis playing Remus Lupin; he's just not who I wanted for that role.

But you're right about Total Eclipse. Everyone involved in the making of that film should be ashamed. Have you seen the terrible Island of Dr. Moreau with Val Kilmer and Marlon Brando? Thewlis is in it. At one point he slaps Kilmer's character, and it's one of the gayest things I've ever seen. I didn't know the human wrist could do that.
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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by checkers » 23 Oct 2007 11:14 am

xD -delurkstopic-
I loved Dumbledore as a character, he was great, powerful, rolemodel. Now that his is a homosexual, well...I STILL love him! xD Why should I change my view on him? Thats like having a good friend finding out they're gay and then hating them. Stupid.

I think Dumbledore is better as a homosexual personally, :/ - Oh and this Lupin and Black talk I don't think would be good, Lupin has a child and a wife xD I don't think that they would ever have been the homosexuals in the books really. :p

I just can't wait to see Gambon act now, he was crap as a straight Dumbledore, trying to be macho and all that, I wonder what he'll be like now..Probably the same I s'pose, he doesn't read books/interviews does he? Only way I think he could find out if he re-reads the script because JK Rowling made a note in the margine that Dumbledore was gay so that the whole added 'I once liked a girl, beautiful she was' scene won't work :3

yay.

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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Jessi » 23 Oct 2007 01:21 pm

checkers wrote: I think Dumbledore is better as a homosexual personally, :/ - Oh and this Lupin and Black talk I don't think would be good, Lupin has a child and a wife xD I don't think that they would ever have been the homosexuals in the books really. :p
Lupin had a wife and child -after- Sirius was dead. There's nothing saying he can't be bisexual, hm? He and Sirius have a very unique relationship in the book. I'm not a fan of HP slash in the -least-, but this is the one pairing I don't only tolerate, but love, because all the proof of it is there.
I just can't wait to see Gambon act now, he was crap as a straight Dumbledore, trying to be macho and all that
I... Never saw him as being Macho? O_o I actually like him as Dumbledore, he has a lot of energy and life in him and well, that's what Dumbledore's about, to me. In the books, I never saw Dumbledore as acting effeminate or gay. I think you're living under a false pretense about gay people, that they can't be 'macho' as you put it - when they very well can be. Just because Dumbledore is gay doesn't mean he has to now don a dress, and a lisp, and flutter around going "Oh goodness, the curtains in my office don't match the portrait of Professor Dippit!"

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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Iggy » 23 Oct 2007 02:15 pm

Lupin never was THAT fond of Tonks anyways. He's closetted.

And, what did Dumbledore being gay bring to the plot? Close to nothing. Therefore, its mention in the movies should be as close to nothing as possible.

Dumbledore is a paternal figure to Harry, and behaves as such.

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Re: [Harry Potter] Offered Without Comment

Post by Sagrei » 23 Oct 2007 09:02 pm

checkers wrote:a straight Dumbledore, trying to be macho and all that
Gwuh? Didn't realize one had to be effeminate to be gay. My brotha-of-anotha-motha can fix cars and drink beer and pee outside with the best of 'em, and he's as queer as a three-dollar-bill. The only universal trait that gay people share is that they want to form romantic and sexual relationships with people of their own gender. That's all. Everything else varies wildly.
iggy wrote:And, what did Dumbledore being gay bring to the plot? Close to nothing.
Exactly. The books are all from Harry's point of view, and as I'm sure we've all noticed by now he's a bit dense sometimes. It's not at all surprising that he didn't notice Dumbledore was gay. Besides -- what seventeen-year-old who singlehandedly is required to save the world routinely speculates on his teachers' and assorted nearby adults' sexual orientation? Outside of fic, anyway, since Earth logic doesn't apply there :P

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